banner

When you recruit 3 star athletes... O'brien will always fight up hill battle

Return to Forum

Please to add a comment.

Oldest First
  • hovis Nov 7, 2012
    All Star

    View quoted thread

    Sorry. Only quoted you because I meant to mention how hilarious that link was. Comment actually intended for the comment you were responding to the NCSU current recruiting rank.

  • packalum10 Nov 7, 2012
    Veteran

    View quoted thread



    I do not know where you saw that I was pointing at the recruiting class affecting next years team. I only was pointing to the fact that in the last few years that the Pack has been as good as 5th, but as bad as last in the ACC in recruiting.

  • buckets112 Nov 7, 2012
    Sports Legend

    View quoted thread



    i respect your opinion and see your point. it does seem like an endeavor of futility to try to improve state's fball program.

    i'm just glad that the folks in charge of the athletic dept don't think that way. otherwise sendek and mike o'cain would still be here, the volleyball team that didn't win a conf match in several years wouldn't be sitting in 4th place right now, and the softball/wrestling/soccer teams would be wasting away with coaches that were taking the teams nowhere.

    i'd rather keep aiming high and failing all the time. it's better than being unwilling to improve or take risks...living comfortably...going unnoticed...in just being good enough. boo.

  • hovis Nov 7, 2012
    All Star

    View quoted thread

    I think this all goes back to a fans definition of success. If it is unreasonable you are sure to be disappointed. To say that state has not succeeded would depend on the definition of success.

    Growing up as a UNC fan that actually went to the game and not to the Wal-Mart hat rack I view it all like this. I came into every season with high hopes. Maybe even unreasonable ones sometimes. But Dick Crum (as hard as he tried) never ran me off. We struggled and I do not care who you are when you are in the midst of a 2 win season you sometimes look around when the score is 44-3 and wonder what in the h^&% you are doing at the game. But I saw very taented kids play football and I pulled for my team even when the odds were long/impossible and held on. We knew that the program was doing all that it could to get better and as a fan that is all that we asked.
    Then Mack Brown came.
    I watched the team that I had pulled for when they were TERRIBLE,become good and pull off some of the most memorable things in football history. I will never, ever forget those high points or the struggle it took to get there.
    I am sure that NCSU fans can directly relate to this from the Amatto era.
    I would not trade those low points if it meant that I never was to experience the high ones.
    Now I wait again. Will either of our schools reach our high points again? I do not know for sure. But I will stay a fan till the day I die on one condition.

    When they quit trying, they will get no more from me.

  • Metta World Biff Nov 7, 2012
    Sports Legend

    It's a crapshoot. If you hire the right guy you win. Mack had UNC knocking on the door. Ranked #4 and 11-1. Then left for Texas and won the big one. He was the right guy. UNC and State were good enough to beat Texas before Mack was there. Alabama hired the wrong guy and UNC and State were good enough to beat them. Then they hired the right guy and are unstoppable right now. Yes, they are blue bloods but it takes the right coach. Look at Notre Dame football. Look at UNC basketball. Slipped to 8-20 then hired the right guy and got 2 quick natty's.
    It's all about hitting paydirt with the right coach. Resources certainly help to secure the right guy. On the flip side, hire the wrong guy and you pay dearly for it. Best example is Colorado. When I was in school there in the 90's we recently won a Natty, won 10 games a year like clockwork and were ranked number 1 in the country during my soph year. They even had an encore in 2001 being ranked #2 and going to the Fiesta bowl. But they hired the wrong guy and it's turned into a 7 year debacle of a program that can't beat a high school team.
    It's all a crapshoot. Kansas St before Snyder is the best example of that. For a good laugh, research the K State football program before Snyder.
    There's no reason why State, UNC or anybody else should expect to be mediocre when a shot at something better is out there.

  • Ken D. Nov 7, 2012
    Sports Legend

    View quoted thread



    I'm not saying what State should or should not do. They can strive all they want. I'm saying that I don't believe that State will ever consistently be much better than they are, and have been for as long as I can remember. I am saying that State has, in fact, been striving to be more for all those years. They have been striving their brains out. They haven't succeeded. Therefore, they continue to be unhappy. They didn't just start to be unhappy. They have been unhappy for years. And I'm betting they will continue to be unhappy - at least most of the time - in the future. Because, unlike Wake Forest, they think they should be better.

    As Berta on the sitcom Two and a Half Men said to Alan: "Zippy, life is a lot easier once you've figured out if you're the pin or the cushion". I just don't think State has figured it out yet.

  • hovis Nov 7, 2012
    All Star

    View quoted thread

    I agree with you buckets as long as everyone is willing to pay the price the rebuilding takes. I do not think that Stoops or Meyers are the best coaches that you can have if given the choice anyway. No one thought that Frank Beamer would ever stay this long at VaTech and look at what he accomplished. Everyone (and I do mean everyone) wanted Grobe from Wake in his early years but he stayed. It does not happen often and Carolina and State have had coaches use us as stepping stones but I think that if you can luck out and get that coach that is coming up from FCS or a small program to stay and build a program around you really have the best thing that you can really wish for outside of changing the school name to Alabama.

  • buckets112 Nov 7, 2012
    Sports Legend

    View quoted thread



    interesting last paragraph. so you're saying that state should accept mediocrity, never strive to be anything better than what they've been in the past, and continue on as a middling team in a bcs conference. that is completely and utterly asinine. i'm sure bill snyder at kansas state would disagree with that mentality as well. if state's goal isn't to improve, but just maintain, i'd rather they do away with the fball program completely.

    all teams, even traditional powerhouses, have been through lean times...finding the right guy for the job could take a few yrs or in state's case, decades. state does face some serious obstacles in finding "the guy." they'll never be able to pull in a big time already successful coach like the urban meyers and bob stoops of the world...state doesn't have brand name recognition like a 'bama, nor is it considered a destination job. their best bet is likely to hire a young up and comer from a non bcs school or maybe even FCS. the gamble paid off with the likes of meyer and brian kelly. the problem will be keeping the guy if he's successful.

  • hovis Nov 7, 2012
    All Star

    View quoted thread

    True. When you change coaches sometimes it even prolongs the agony even if it is a good hire because of decommits and the temporary advantage this gives to your local opponents. But it is the price that you must be willing to pay if you wish to get your team to the place you feel they should be. State basketball is a great example of that. They are back in the national picture. That is not luck, there was alot of pain and suffering and hard decisions to make all through that process to reach the current level. Whether or not the level is reasonable or not is continuously debatable. However if you persevere you will likely get there. It took 30 years for it to reach a level that nearly all State fans would agree it should be. A lot of that was a 20+ year coaching search. The real question there is would you have rather competed for the ACC on more occasions in that span or be in the national picture?
    Not meant to imply that State is expects to get into the national picture in football. Just meant to compare the expectations and the wait for them to be fulfilled.

  • kato_karma.v3 Nov 7, 2012
    Sports Legend

    Excellent 2 posts Juice.

    Tough call for Yow/NCSU, but one that needs to be addressed if the Pack football program is to take the next step.

    Given that hindsight is 20/20, UNC's post-Mack coaching decisions to go with Torbush, Bunting, and Davis have left us Heel fans with 14 years of funk -- the first 2 simply could not coach and the latter one tainted the program with academic/character woes.

    Still too early to tell, but Fedora seems to have the coaching acumen along with the ability to relate to the younger recruits (and fans).

  • Ken D. Nov 7, 2012
    Sports Legend

    View quoted thread



    I think you can expect it, and demand it, and get rid of coaches who don't deliver it. But at the end of the day, what you will most likely get is the same results you have had for a century. Only with more frequent coaching changes. Just because you are big, and a state university, doesn't mean you should win consistently. If that were true, there would be at least thirty teams every year in the top ten.

    Wake Forest is happy with their coach because they understand who they are and where they fit in the world of college football. State is, and will continue to be, unhappy with their coaches because they don't.

  • Juice E Fruit Nov 7, 2012
    Veteran

    View quoted thread


    You are absolutely right. TOB is a bad recruiter. Two classes in the top 6 of the ACC in 5 years is pathetic.

    Glennon's class was TOB's best by far. And they are redshirt seniors now, what's left of them. Once they're gone, there will be a significant drop-off. We've already down in talent at LB. Secondary is shaky. OL never has been good. DL is okay, not stellar. WR isn't good.

    And there's no reason to expect any of this is going to change.

  • Juice E Fruit Nov 7, 2012
    Veteran

    It's a totally different situation for Grobe. Wake Forest knew how he was going to do things from the start, and decided they were okay with that.

    They know they can never get to a point where they can recruit against Clemson or FSU. Ever. It's just not possible, due to their academic requirements.

    So they bought into Grobe's philosophy of recruiting "character" players, redshirting all of them, and hoping they develop into ACC-caliber by the their 4th and 5th years. And they are okay with having a fairly regular bowl team, and having the miracle scenario come together once every decade where they might win the ACC. And otherwise, they are okay with simply being a tough opponent the rest of the time.

    That is NOT okay at a big public school like State or Carolina. Nor should it be. Both schools have too big a fan base, that has been both asked AND has contributed big-time to their respective programs.

    We both should EXPECT at LEAST a bowl every year. We should EXPECT to challenge for the ACC at least twice every 5 years, if not win it.

    Until we EXPECT this, and DEMAND it of our coach and be willing to get rid of coaches who don't deliver, then what we've had, historically, is what we will continue to have. Inconsistency.

  • hovis Nov 7, 2012
    All Star

    View quoted thread

    Absolutely correct and good point.

  • Ken D. Nov 7, 2012
    Sports Legend

    View quoted thread



    Another part of this equation is that Grobe is generally recruiting kids who don't have high expectations of coming out to the NFL early. If you recruit a five star wide receiver, who is likely to enter the draft after his third season (that is, as soon as he is eligible) why bother to redshirt him? He's never going to use that fifth year of eligibility anyway. But the three star kid who got the extra year in the weight room and on the practice field is going to make a major contribution to your team in his fifth year.

  • hovis Nov 7, 2012
    All Star

    View quoted thread

    This years recruiting class does not have much impact on next years football team or to lesser extent the following year. Usually linemen on both sides of the ball often need at least 2 years to get into the weight training program and to be coached and taught to be ready to play division 1 football to even approach their potential. WR's and RB's can offer a more immediate impact. Figure that positions that require size and strength require two years and positions that require speed and skill require at least one year. Even this is not optimal. Every coaches dream is to redshirt everyone that you can get away with and get a more prepared product when they hit the field. This is really the thing that Jim Grobe does as policy and why he seems to get steady play out of lesser recruiting classes. Of course at our more high profile programs the demand to put a good product on the field every single year does not allow most schools to do this.

  • packalum10 Nov 7, 2012
    Veteran

    The website he posted has NCSU from 07-13 5th, twice 6th, twice 10th and once at 12th. Packpride's ACC ranking is 9th. That is not the top half. This excludes Pitt and Syracuse's class. Epic rant:

    http://gamedayr.com/gamedayr/trojans-fan-lane-kiffin-rant-video/

  • buckets112 Nov 6, 2012
    Sports Legend

    View quoted thread



    i honestly thought the 2010 team was his best squad talent wise...he had experienced playmakers on offense (rw, spencer, jarvis williams, george bryan), defense (irving, audie cole, manning), and tj graham on special teams. all that talent and blown opportunities at ecu (slow start), va tech (blown 17-0 lead), clemson (red zone woes), and the stupidness that was the maryland game.

    TOB is a good coach, no doubts there...he just doesn't have that "it" factor i guess. a coach with that special something is hard to find but they're out there. all the big name coaches....saban, les miles, urban meyer, chip kelly, brian kelly...are disciplinarians. the difference with them is that they balance the hard azz mentality with some kind of personality.

    TOB is what he is...a no nonsense coach that isn't flashy, will get the team to some kind of middle tier bowl game, and won't sully the reputation of the school. some kind of bowl game just about every season may be good enough at a smaller private school...i just think that a large public university with a fan base to match expects (and deserves) better.

  • buckets112 Nov 6, 2012
    Sports Legend

    View quoted thread



    he also had a top 6 class in 2008...additionally, state is right at #6 this year according to rivals so there's a chance that the class ranking may still move up or down. according to the scout.com rankings, state is 8th in the conference. in any case, 1 to 2 out of 6 yrs of not being in the bottom half is what i consider routine. doesn't mean i'm right or wrong...that's just my personal metric.

  • packalum10 Nov 6, 2012
    Veteran

    View quoted thread



    His statement about this being the best team, deepest team etc. did not help him this year. It also did not help to beat #3 ranked FSU, then lose to UNC and then get pounded vs. UVA. I personally respect his style of leadership. He expects you to do your job, but to me, there seems to be a lack of discipline in failure. He allows you to hold yourself accountable, but not many people are geared that way. I can see it working at an Academy, but not at a public university. RW thrived in this environment, he was disciplined and had a passion to win. I was in a history class with a Jack Britt graduate, a back up qb, who complained about RW being too serious. Needless to say, the back up was dismissed I believe a year later. I think TOB has brought State as far as he can. I just don't want to see a regression with a new hire. These are the top coaches on the hot seat: http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2012/11/5/3602610/college-football-coaches-hot-seat-joker-phillips.

    I had a link to the top coaches available, but can not deliver at the moment. I took the history class as an elective.

  • WolfPackInTheHizzouse Nov 6, 2012
    Sports Legend

    View quoted thread


    by "routinely", I assume you mean.... "just NOT this year"...????

    http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncstate/football/recruiting/teamrank/2013/all/all

    unless top 6 is some sort of new "bottom half" I'm unaware of.

    holla.

  • buckets112 Nov 6, 2012
    Sports Legend

    ajr

    i agree that TOB has done a solid job in improving academics and shedding the oakland raiders like tendencies that plagued amato's teams in his later years. and you're right, unfortunately those things alone don't translate into W's or make it into sportscenter highlights.

    i think that TOB set himself up for failure by making grandiose promises and then failing to achieve them. i hoped he would be guy to elevate the program, i really did...but after meeting him in person at a wolfpack club caravan event a few yrs ago, i completely understand why his recruiting classes routinely rank in the bottom half of the ACC.

  • VT1994Hokie Nov 6, 2012
    Sports Legend

    When you look at the top Division I schools in football and basketball all across America...90% of the wins comes from top notch recruiting the top players. Bottom line. Bobby Lutz has done as well as any Head Coach in the ACC and maybe close to the top 10% of all schools as an assistant.

    The top notch schools that have a name and tradition have always done well. Athletes recruit themselves to a school like Duke, UNC, K'Tucky, IU, UConn, and the rest in basketball. The same is true in football. Bama, LSU, Oregon, Oregon St., ND, FSU, Clemson, and a host of the SEC schools, and etc...There is a reason why athletes are labled 4-5 Star athletes. It's pretty simple to see it when we view the rosters of the top guns in both sports.

  • buckets112 Nov 6, 2012
    Sports Legend

    View quoted thread



    agreed...the sooner the better. the longer you let things linger the harder it will be for the new guy to gain any traction with recruits that are still on the fence and to sell the program to other players.

    recruits these days have access to more info than ever before...they see the team struggling and are aware of the constant speculation regarding the employment status of the coach.

  • packalum10 Nov 6, 2012
    Veteran

    View quoted thread



    I don't believe TOB will take NCSU to multiple ACC championships or even the top 25 in recruiting or rankings. I am not debating that at all. I have a hard time though seeing a replacement currently available or projected to be at this time. I mentioned that in another board. I think TOB has done a solid job to get NCSU where they are, with what he worked with. I think the APR and character of the program is better off due to him. That being said, neither of those win football games. Anyways, rumors are starting about Jimbo to Auburn and USC fans are upset with three losses under Lane Kiffin. If I had a choice of a coach and unlimited income (I am not the AD nor do I have the money), I would desire Mark Stoops or Mike Gundy. I am not predicting these as the next coach of NCSU and do not want that to be the perception of my choices.

  • hovis Nov 6, 2012
    All Star

    View quoted thread

    the main need is that a decision is made. Do not freeze your recruiting by having never ending speculation as to TOBs' job status. If it is going to be done you do it now. This also makes the job more appealing to more coaching candidates in case they need to replace any decommits and gives time to convince some kids to commit while there is still time.

  • buckets112 Nov 6, 2012
    Sports Legend

    View quoted thread



    who will be TOB's replacement...that right there is a tough nut to crack. the same fervor that makes pack fans so great, can also be a big negative at times. with that being said, it will take a guy with a particular mentality to coach at state. someone similar to gottfried...doesn't ask why but why not, isn't afraid of success, has a road map/plan on how to get to the next level,and a guy that can connect with today's kids.

    with that being said...i haven't done much research on who is available out there, head coach, coordinator, or former coach turned commentator.

  • hovis Nov 6, 2012
    All Star

    View quoted thread

    Agreed. I will concede the point in this situation since there is no backup it is different and may not be interpreted as a "replacement" due to that. I was speaking about the teams that use juco transfers more often and not really for Stocker in particular. Retreading the post it doesn't really read that way so I see the confusion.

  • Ken D. Nov 6, 2012
    Sports Legend

    View quoted thread



    Is that any different than accepting a transfer from Colorado State? Surely high school players understand that a team needs to have more than one or two QBs on the roster in case of injury. UNC brought in Chris Keldorf back in the 90's while Oscar Davenport was there, and it worked out pretty good for them. If it's just an occasional, situational thing, I don't think there's a problem. If you do it routinely, then your point is more valid.

  • packalum10 Nov 6, 2012
    Veteran

    View quoted thread



    I was not pointing to him as a Saviour or trying to take away from any of the valid points concerning TOB. Just pointing out that he was on the roster and most likely the starter next year since several comments were made concerning the QB situation next year. This is probably the best thread on the coaching situation at NCSU on any board. I want to know who is the best replacement though realistically.

  • buckets112 Nov 6, 2012
    Sports Legend

    View quoted thread



    very valid points. however, after TOB accepted the job he stated several reasons for leaving BC and coming to state. the ones that stand out to me were that he said he would be able to recruit better than he did at BC because of access to more talented kids and that he would be able to build/coach teams that will compete for ACC and national titles. unfortunately it hasn't quite worked out that way. i realize that my perspective is influenced by my affiliations but as kato said a few posts ago, the perception among many of us is that the other local schools are indeed getting better while it's "the same ol' state" in west raleigh. that is completely UNACCEPTABLE to me.

    i agree that if they do make a coaching change, it will likely be followed by several down years until the new regime's schemes and philosophies take hold...and who knows what will come after that. an endless cycle of coaching changes and mediocrity is a possibility, but you have to take risks and not play it safe all the time. TOB was a safe hire. consistent 6-9 wins, sure...path to greatness? meh.

    fedora was lucky that his cupboard was left quite full from butch's fantastic recruiting (referring to current players, not the "other" ones). whoever takes TOB's place, whenever it happens, will not be as fortunate.

  • hovis Nov 6, 2012
    All Star

    View quoted thread

    yes. His name is Pete Thomas and he was the qb at Colorado State before he was injured. I was not going to mention a Colorado state transfer who threw more interceptions than touchdowns at Colorado State so that this intelligent thread would not devolve into whether he or any particular single recruit was any good. Maybe he will be better. Not likely though.

  • packalum10 Nov 6, 2012
    Veteran

    There is a QB on the roster for next year. Former Colorado or CSU transfer (don't remember which). He has playing time there and put up decent stats and was a 4 star recruit (not that it matters at this point).

  • kato_karma.v3 Nov 6, 2012
    Sports Legend

    Another factor in the decision to make a coaching change -- Do the fans perceive that your competition is getting better whilst you basically tread water?

    For example, that rivalry loss was to a program (in turmoil?) on its 3rd head coach in 3 years -- and the new staff completely overhauled their offense AND defense -- and they haven't started pulling in recruits tailored for said schemes.

    And another example, that small private school team in Durham appears to be doing much more with much less.

  • hovis Nov 6, 2012
    All Star

    View quoted thread

    I don't think that is really fair to TOB. He won some big games, dominated his in state rivalries, and won some bowl games. If you want to view his tenure without any fan bias for or against him or without applying anger that could change after the next win you must mention those important facts. Now that they have been stated, the next couple of years will likely be rough. 95% of all programs experience down years but they evaluate the high points and decide that if after those couple of down years they can meet or exceed the high point that they just experienced with the coaching staff that they have in place. That is how you decide on a change because a coaching change almost never makes you better immediately unless there is some seriously underutilized talent available.

  • buckets112 Nov 6, 2012
    Sports Legend

    View quoted thread



    TOB was brought in by fowler to take state to the next level...so considering that the program is still treading water, i consider the hire to be an abject failure.

  • hovis Nov 6, 2012
    All Star

    View quoted thread

    Juco kids are a double edged sword. While they provide instant experience and a better know commodity, they are terrible for your recruiting. Example:
    Lets say that Stocker comes from a High School that you want to recruit at. Alot of programs have high school that they recruit far better at than others. When you got Stocker to commit to State it was not by telling him that "we want you to be our quarterback unless a better one anywhere comes available". He was told that he would be in a reasonable competion to start for State. Now that he is listed as States most likely starting QB next year all of the teammates that he played with cannot wait to watch him play for State. You can recruit that school well.
    If you replace that kid with a last minute Juco transfer he does not recomend his teamates to play for you and may even speak badly of the school. Do not return there for more kids.

  • Ken D. Nov 6, 2012
    Sports Legend

    View quoted thread



    What TOB has failed to do is to elevate State to a level higher than what it has experienced over the past 30 odd years. 33-39 may not be a great record, but it is not much different than what State coaches have been able to achieve in the relevant past.

    Hovis' points here and elsewhere about position recruiting are on target. Each year's recruiting class is, or should be, need based. So last year State signed 6 defensive linemen, but only 2 wide receivers. This year, they have commitments from 4 receivers, and no DLs. What's troubling is that with only 1 QB in last year's class, and none in this one, the attrition at that position this year from graduation and transfers really puts the Wolfpack in a precarious position next season.

    I wonder if TOB will be looking for a JUCO to add some depth immediately. Look what happened to Maryland this year.

  • buckets112 Nov 6, 2012
    Sports Legend

    great discussion and talking points by all...it's good to see some real sports talk for a change instead of the usual booolsheet.

    by and large i think we all agree that TOB has been completely ineffective at building a consistent and competitive football program. 33-39 in a weak conference is pretty bad.

  • hovis Nov 6, 2012
    All Star

    We are saying the same thing here as far as large numbers. I did not mean to imply that there is not a huge difference if we are talking about large numbers because absolutely there is.

    As to the top 20 teams...my point exactly.

    As to TOB and his job, that is a topic for a different thread. But his recruiting classes have not been good by anyones standards.

    Last year UNC got commits from Summers who decommited from state. The reason this is so amazing is that he would have no real competion for the starting spot most likely. Carolina has 4 star Marquis Williams in the wings after he stayed when Gholston who is currently starting for Notre Dame decided that there was not room for him in the program and decommited and transfered. A three star Coker commited last year and this year the 24th ranked qb Mitch Trubisky is already commited for 2013. That is how you position build for the future as any program.
    The state future quarterbeack at the same time is M. Stocker who will probably be an option quarterback which we know is not TOBs'preferred offense anyway. Won't really matter if his only option is to run for one yard or get sacked with the graduating offensive line.
    No quarterback commited for this year.

    The question is not whether Stocker can or can't succeed when you talk about the coach and recruiting. You should appreciate any kid who wants to be part of your programs success. It is possible that he does well. The question is which position as a program would you rather be in and who is more likely to succeed.

  • Juice E Fruit Nov 6, 2012
    Veteran

    View quoted thread



    Historically, I'd say that in large numbers, there IS a difference.

    Look at say, the last 3-4 years of recruiting. Look at VT. They sign mostly 3*, just like we are. But their average 3* is considerably higher than our average 3*.

    That will make a HUGE difference over time. Maybe not in one class, but build a program of VT-type 3*'s and TOB-type 3*, and I know who I would pick to have more success.

    Now, couple that with the fact that VT also sprinkles in a few 4* guys here and there, and the results speak for themselves.

    Look at the top 20 teams and their recruiting. Throw out your K-State and Boises...they sign a LOT of JuCo's that couldn't get into bigger programs. Can't do that in the ACC.
    You'll find that the overwhelming majority of the top 20 of any year recruit better than we do.

    Now, can that be done at NC State? Absolutely. Amato did it. Sheridan was starting to do it at the end of his time here.
    Amato lost his job because of his ego.....he couldn't keep assistants, and over time, that hurt his program, and got him fired.
    But getting talent wasn't a problem. He got it.

    Now why can't get get someone who recruits like that, and runs a tighter ship and keeps assistants like TOB? It CAN be done. And if Debbie Yow stays true to what she has stated she requires of her coaches, (top 25 programs) the decision to get rid of TOB or have him retire is easy.
    We aren't a top 25 program. And if we're not this year, we aren't going to be for several years, as the poor recruiting classes start being the bulk of the starters.

  • hovis Nov 6, 2012
    All Star

    View quoted thread

    Also if you have good coaching a three star sophmore does not surpass your junior starter. If he does and he is not all acc or something that would be a sign of a different problem.

  • hovis Nov 6, 2012
    All Star

    View quoted thread

    This what I am saying in a way. They are not bad at most positions, just average or a little better. As to the 3 star thing you are quite right and you would rather have the #30. Historically however there is not that big a difference. The vast gulf occurs between 2 star and three star.

  • Juice E Fruit Nov 6, 2012
    Veteran

    View quoted thread


    True.

    Another telling stat is the offer lists of our recruits. Most often, we are competing with MAC schools and maybe Maryland or BC for recruits. It's very infrequent that we get commits from players that have offers from several ACC and SEC/Big 10 schools.

    And when we do, they are a 'fall back' option for the bigger school, not a primary target.

    I don't think we should be able to recruit head-to-head with Florida and UGA and beat them on a regular basis for players, but how about, EVER? You have to get some of the really good ones at least OCCASIONALLY.

  • Juice E Fruit Nov 6, 2012
    Veteran

    Even most of TOB's 3 star players are the lower-ranked ones at their positions.

    There aren't but so many 4 and 5 star players at a particular position.
    You can feasibly sign the #30 MLB, and he'd be a 3*. But you could sign #75 and he's also a 3*.

    Which one would you rather have? And which one is TOB more likely to sign? Just look at the position rankings of his last 3 classes, and you'll have your answer.

  • hovis Nov 6, 2012
    All Star

    View quoted thread

    Boise State 2 years ago, TCU last year and 2 years ago, Kansas State this year. These schools do not apply to this conversation. All of these schools do not recruit they just wait for kids to not be accepted to bigger schools or to be kicked out. Kids that are not expected to make the grades for acception to real colleges do not often get star rankings or a real look from major universities since they can never get in. K state in the last 3 years has recruited below 75th. It is not coacjing that is their success. Of their 22 starters, 16 are junior college transfers. Boise St and to a lesser extent TCU are the same way. If all schools had the ability to put their kids into a semi college league for a year and then "draft" them it would not be as hard to build a good team.

  • buckets112 Nov 6, 2012
    Sports Legend

    View quoted thread



    good pts...but i think TOB's ability to develop the 2/3* kids is highly overrated...or maybe it's his overall coaching acumen. tcu and boise st have consistently done pretty well with a roster filled mainly with 3* recruits. sure boise st plays in a weak conference but they managed to win a bcs bowl a few yrs ago and are always competitive in their games.

    recruiting rankings aside, the proof is in the pudding. 33-39 acc record...1-23 div road games.

  • buckets112 Nov 6, 2012
    Sports Legend

    the thing that kills me is his reputation for recruiting so called diamonds in the rough. in reality, this is a way to mask his inability to land better rated players. year in and year out the coaching staff offers scholarships to kids that are highly regarded in recruiting circles only to fall by the wayside when these young men trim their school list.

    this is the recruiting list for 2014, you can see that he's going after the big fish too but will ultimately have to settle for guys ranked further down the list. the list for 2013 had at least 15 4/5* prospects at one point but that is now down to 5 that still have some interest.

    http://northcarolinastate.scout.com/a.z?s=178&p=9&c=4&yr=2014

    by contrast, fedora already has verbals from 4 4* recruits in his first year with a team that is undergoing ncaa sanctions/investigation. if nothing changes in 5 yrs, i see unc as a consistent top 25 and state still stuck in neutral hovering around .500 in the last month of the season.

  • hovis Nov 6, 2012
    All Star

    And there is nothing at all wrong with 3 star atheletes. They are the bread and butter of every teams recruiting class. Some will exceed the expectations while some will fall short. The real concern is when you see 2 and 0 star atheletes that no one recruited often. There are some great stories out there of lowly ranked kids overachieving but it is most certainly not the norm. And two star kids often happen when you fail at getting the kids that you wanted. They were very rarely a first choice for a program.

  • hovis Nov 6, 2012
    All Star

    I should probably take a sec to explain how recruiting is really to be judged for some of the people that are reading these posts before I make the following statements. Just because your recruiting class is ranked 10th or 15th in the country that does not mean that people project that team to make that ranking in the polls two or three years from now. Every kid in that 10th ranked class could be defensive, or your team could fail to recruit a quarterback, or kids do not reach their potential for various reasons. People that just put up class recruiting rankings without any attention being paid to the needs of the team is quoting a useless stat. One year of recruiting is meaningless also. You can get your linemen in one year and your running backs the next when available (etc). You have to spend hours evealuating the current players, team needs, and potential of each kid. And stars are not everything. It seems to me that the school that offered (not just recruited) a kid are a better determining factor than their stars. Stars are a mix of their potential future ability and the readiness of a particular athelete to make an imediate impact. When you look at all these factors together you can make some determination of the future talent level of a team. Other factors can still effect this such as JC kids getting into school late and a coach helping a recruit exceed his potenial. But for the people who claim recruiting does not matter...view the top 40 programs. When you take all of the factors that I stated above into account you will not be surprised very often by who is there and who is not.
    That said, TOB is one of the greatest coaches I have ever seen except make Grobe at getting the most out of his kids. If the most he can get is to turn a two star kid into a three star one then he has a long way to go. It should also be noted that the kids that are playing well for State currently were highly recruited with the exception of Wolff. (Glennon, Amerson, Crisp, etc.)

Oldest First
  • NASCAR: Ford City 500 at Bristol

    Today at 1:00 pm on FOX50

  • PGA: RBC Heritage

    Today at 3:00 pm on WRAL-TV

  • MLB: Cincinnati at St. Louis

    Tonight at 8:00 on 99.9 The Fan