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Charging rule needs to go away

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  • TsKaMF Mar 1, 2013
    Sports Legend

    You mean like when travel hopsflop would bunny hop 1 to 3 times then go into a 3pt.stance, lower his shoulder & run over someone ?
    Or just talking about falling down as if you have been hit by a sniper ?

  • VT1994Hokie Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

    Question: Is the defensive player's torso in position before the offensive player begins his upward motion to shoot the ball? The rule is that a charging foul cannot be called if the play occurs within a 4' radius around the center of the basket or the so-called restricted area. This is why in a blick of an eye that officials have a difficult time between a charge and foul. Most of the time the officials have an easier time to make a call. But. When the game is close and the teams are tied for example: Officials sometimes don't make a call and allow fouls to occur, especially at the end of close games. Kansas was fortunate this week.

  • Heels2Win1982 Feb 28, 2013
    All Star

    The number of steps does not matter as the player can dribble right into someone = charge. The continued judgeent call and technical for the blatant fakes would be the best solution IMO!

  • Ken D. Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    A defender can't try to "block the shot" until the offensive player actually shoots. If the offense is in the act of driving, and not the act of shooting, there is nothing a defender can do without fouling him unless he stands still. It's his only option other than just stepping out of the way and conceding a basket.

    I have a problem with a defender stepping in front of a driver so late that the offensive player has no option but to run into him. If the defense is there in time to allow the driver to pull up for a jumper or dish off, and the player continues to the basket, I have no problem calling an offensive foul.

    Maybe the answer, as someone else pointed out, is to count the steps. If the offensive player has taken two steps after the defense is set it's a charge. One step it's a block.

  • TruthBKnown Banned Again01 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

    It will be hard to get rid of the charging call, I admit. I just wish they would do something to "encourage" defenders to actually play REAL defense, like trying to block the shot instead of just standing there hoping for the charge. I just hate that. Make 'em play some REAL defense!

  • VT1994Hokie Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    I liked what you stated about NO Calls.

    Most times the defender doesn't even see the guy screening. It would be difficult to call anything on this one. The worst thing is the moving screen. This needs to be called. Some games they do, and then again they look the other way. This gives the offense a great advantage when they allow moving screens. Even the NBA has tried to call this more than previously.

  • PackisBack Feb 28, 2013
    All Star

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    That is another topic all together. But I hear what you are saying.

  • jmcdow2792 Feb 28, 2013
    All Star

    While I agree that faking should be penalized, I am not sure eliminating the charge is a good idea. Perhaps it needs to be more clear about establishing position (distance, number of steps, etc.) The problem I see is screens. Essentially the same play, except the offense is establishing the postion. Do you call a blocking foul on the screener if the defense runs into him? Would need some consistency. Some no calls would likely be one answer to the charge. Maybe the refs instructions should be, unless it is absolutely clear on the charge that no call is made. Many contacts on screens are no calls.

  • StunGunn Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

    I'd like to see obvious flopping get called for a foul. I understand it's hard to totally eliminate the charge/block fouls. There's no easy answer. Like someone said, seeing something in real time looks one way - and this is what the refs have to react to - but it looks totally different in slow-mo. If the refs started handing out fouls for obvious flops, it would at least help, if not eliminate the charge/block problem. I also think the "no call" zone should be larger - it's too small now.

    And while we're on our "Fan Wish List" - I'd like to see the shot clock down to 30 seconds. If the women's game has it, why not the men's? It helps to speed up the game, and I would think it would be easier for the players to transition to the NBA where the shot clock is only 24 seconds.

  • TruthBKnown Banned Again01 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    You got a dig in when you assumed this was because State has fared so poorly over the last 25 years in basketball.

    This has nothing to do with that. We've been BAD, no doubt about it. Good officiating would not change that, although an outcome here and there might have been different. But not for the most part.

    I just hate it when I see the offense off and running, and the defender just stands there with his hands in the air and minimal contact results in the charging call. I'd like to remove that from the realm of possibility except in cases where there is heavy contact clearly initiated by the offensive player. That removes the subjective element to a degree, which is always good. Especially in basketball when it is much needed.

  • VT1994Hokie Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

    This rule will never change. I will agree with all that flopping has really hurt this great game as previously mentioned. Charging and blocking is difficult in a fast paced game like we see today. The officials have a tough darn job. They miss calls, even when they try as hard as humanly possible to get it right. A blink of an eye, and they are expected to blow the whistle. If they don't; then they look stupid. That's why so many things aren't called in a tight game near the end of the game.

  • jcinncar Feb 28, 2013
    Veteran

    I don't the the charge needs to be eliminated from the game but I do agree that it is a highly subjective call to make. I think what would help this would be to make legal the offensive player to be allowed to have a step before the charge could be called. In other words, if I take one step and then charge into the defensive player there would be no charge call. This would help relieve some of the inconsistency of the officials. I'm thinking that ultimately a step-and-a-half would be better than one step (to make things significantly easier for the refs) but I think this is the way to approach this. After all, the defense has to be allowed to protect the basket...but it's not fair to anyone involved if faking is allowed to benefit one side or the other.

  • larrys080 .v1 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    Victim?

  • packfan27 Feb 28, 2013
    Rookie

    Gott: So there's no more charge call? Somebody get me T.A. McLendon on the phone!

  • BeastOfTheHill Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    That s right Larry. Go play pick up basketball at your local YMCA and you quickly see there is little chance of getting a charging call but strong defense is played. Yes, there is banging and attempting to gain position, there are players trying to slap the ball away but there are few fouls called. it's tough basketball without officials but the officals need to relax and stop all the little ticky tack calls. Let the players play the game without a whistle every 20 seconds.

  • larrys080 .v1 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    ???

    What dig? I don't think TBK would deem anything I said as a dig. Guarantee I certainly didn't mean anything I said as a dig.

  • BeastOfTheHill Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

    keeping in mind the rule itself. It is supposed to be the player that INITIATES contact AND GAINS an ADVANTAGE shall be charged with a foul. So with that being the case The charge, the block and the no call all have to remain. When the flop occurs what is the best to me is the no call and I like it when the ref just looks down at the player on his back and grins and smirks as if to tell him how stupid he looks.

  • still heelman1973 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    I'm sure you never played, but getting between your man and the basket is playing real defense. The call does not need to be eliminated, but the officials do need to do a better job of calling flopping.

  • PackisBack Feb 28, 2013
    All Star

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    Larry one question. Can you talk about sports without trying to a dig in? Just wondering.

  • larrys080 .v1 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    You are entitled to your opinion. I certainly don't think the game is rigged at all. I think years of disappointment have made you feel the way you do. I actually think the alternating possession has had a greater negative impact on the game than the charge/block. My hope is for that to change before any other changes are considered.

  • TruthBKnown Banned Again01 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    I took basketball as a P.E. class when I was at State. We all took turns being the officials, and it was VERY hard to do. I remember guys looking at me like "aren't you going to call that???" and all I could think was it was a mass of humanity banging around about 100 mph. How am I supposed to see that!

    But like anything, I'm sure I'd get better at it over time.

  • TruthBKnown Banned Again01 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    I think the exact opposite. I think the less talented have more of a chance with this rule. Sure, they have to THINK more, but in some ways they do not have to think more. I think their first thought is to draw the charge. If that was much less of an option, they'd have to figure out how to try to STOP the offense without fouling. And the more talented teams are going to play better because they don't have to worry as much about a stupid charge that is called incorrectly half the time anyway.

  • Heels2Win1982 Feb 28, 2013
    All Star

    I used to be a referee in the Rec league for spending $ during my college days and I did baseball and volleyball but refused to do basketball as it is the toughest to call.

  • TruthBKnown Banned Again01 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    I think this is why it seems so rigged. Officials have a LOT more subjectivity in their calls than in most other sports. At least, that's how it seems. Basketball is so fast and furious, they almost have to make up their mind about the call before it even happens. And the men's game is not played in a fundamentally sound fashion. If you watch a girls' game, even if it is more boring, they do play right I think. It seems like the men travel a lot, and commit fouls a lot, and you really can't call it all. The game would be unwatchable.

    I just wish there was some way to remove some of the subjectivity.

  • larrys080 .v1 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

    Establishing defensive position and out thinking your opponent actually takes brains as well as skill. Take away the charge and the sport turns into street ball. The less talented and the teams who aren't coached well would benefit. Im ok with this rule especially since I have never seen it truly affect the outcome of a game.

  • PackisBack Feb 28, 2013
    All Star

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    I feel for the refs. Sometimes I see a charge in real time and say good call then they slow it down and it's like hey they did't barely touch. In my opinion basketball is one of the hardest sports to ref and imagine they used to do it with two refs. I agree something needs to be done.

  • TruthBKnown Banned Again01 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

    OK, I gotta get some work done. I just wanted to get some discussion going on this. Thanks for keeping it civil (so far). Other than nutz telling me I've lost my mind, it has been a good discussion. We need more of this on here. Nothing but smack talk gets old sometimes.

  • TruthBKnown Banned Again01 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    Absolutely!

  • TruthBKnown Banned Again01 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    This definitely needs more thought and discussion. Like the other guys said earlier, we can't just let the offensive player barrel through an opponent like a raging bull. But I want flopping eliminated, and I'd just like to see players forced to play defense.

    There's not much worse than seeing your guy make a great move, only to have the ref come running all theatrically onto the court making the "Charging" motion, and taking away the basket. And all the defender did was stand there like a knot on a log. It gets called too often. Maybe the charging call just needs to be more limited, and only called when the offensive player is truly out of control. Sometimes, he pulls up just a little late, nails the shot, and comes down on the defender for a minor bump that gets call charging. No one was out of control, it was just minimal contact. I don't like seeing the defense rewarded for that kind of minimal effort.

  • Heels2Win1982 Feb 28, 2013
    All Star

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    Great post PAB/86WA/Lawn Boy.

    I agree with Ken D. A few Technical fouls for some of those fake falls on charges and three point shots and it would improve things ASAP!!!

  • PackisBack Feb 28, 2013
    All Star

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    I agree with what you are saying. If forces the defender to play.

  • TruthBKnown Banned Again01 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

    There are two reasons for this post. It's not just flopping. We all hate that. But it's also to prevent players from just standing there like a knot on a log trying to draw a wussy charge instead of playing REAL defense.

  • PackisBack Feb 28, 2013
    All Star

    Nice clip Sportznut and thanks for the real discussion. This is the type of material I enjoy to read. Not the name calling.

    If they did get rid of the charge it would be interesting to see how it effected the game.

  • TruthBKnown Banned Again01 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    Like I said, if the offensive player is barrelling through like a bull in a china shop, then call a foul on the player. And not just a player-control foul, but one where the defender gets to shoot free throws if in the bonus. I think they could re-work this so as to encourage the offensive player to play right, and force the defender to try to play defense (or get out of the way).

  • SportznutV2.0 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

    You have lost your mind dude. I made this same comment on Gold's article - if someone embellishes a foul, charge or otherwise, then it is a T. Handing out T's for nonsense like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0upQDkY-pg will stop it.

    You can't allow offensive guys to go running full speed down the lane...they need to learn how to jump stop and shoot...or work for a different shot

  • Fuck you mods Feb 28, 2013
    Veteran

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    I agree Ken. The NHL implemented a diving rule and it cut down on a decent chunk of it. College basketball and soccer in general need to implement this as well.

  • TruthBKnown Banned Again01 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    He doesn't have to step aside. That is just one choice he has. Another is to actually try to block the shot. Just don't stand there like a rock.

    I'm with you on that embellishing thing, too. The way I see it, if a player flops when there is little or no contact, they are trying to TRICK the official into making the incorrect call. It ought to be a technical foul. That way players would only fall when there was "real" contact involved.

  • Ken D. Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

    I hate flopping as much as the next guy, but I can't see the logic of penalizing a defender because he established a good defensive position. Why should he have to step aside and let a player drive to the basket?

    If he can't force a driver to take a different route to the basket, then it's only fair not to allow offensive players to go to the basket unimpeded either. And that makes no sense at all.

    The fact is that most calls in basketball are subjective. They have to be. If you called a foul every time one player came into contact with another both teams would run out of players before halftime. So how much contact is too much?

    I would prefer to allow officials to penalize players for embellishing fouls. A few technicals for unsportsmanlike conduct would eliminate the worst of the flopping.

  • TruthBKnown Banned Again01 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

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    That would be a foul on the defender. The defender should have to either make a play on the ball, or risk being called for the foul.

    But I get your point, too. The offensive player would have the freedom to do just about anything they wanted to do. There would have to be limits (like right now, the offensive player is not allowed to "hook" the defender while spinning around them). Likewise, if the offensive player bowled over a defender in a fashion that was deemed overboard, maybe they could be called for a technical. That would force self-restraint. So most contact in the lane, if any, would be minimal. And that would be a foul on the defender.

  • chapelthrillv2 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

    I get what you are saying, but if you get rid of the rule then you'll enable offensive players to just bowl over the defender with no consequence or repercussions. The rule is frustrating but it needs to stay, IMO.

  • TruthBKnown Banned Again01 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

    Additionally, charging/blocking calls are too subjective. They are called or not called at the whims of the referees. I like the idea of taking one more subjective rule out of the hands of the officials. They should like that, too. It would mean much less criticism they would have to endure.

  • TruthBKnown Banned Again01 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

    This is not a smack-talk topic. State players do it, too. As long as it is a rule, players are going to do it. Coaches are going to coach them to do it. And players flop over backwards like boneheads. That's why the rule needs to go away. It's the only way to eliminate flopping.

  • TruthBKnown Banned Again01 Feb 28, 2013
    Sports Legend

    I've been thinking about this, and I really DESPISE the charging rule. I say do away with it, and force players to actually DEFEND. Think about it, doing away with the charging rule would eliminate flopping, something we all hate.

    I think players look stupid just standing there waiting for the offensive player to come crashing into them. Put your hands up, jump and try to BLOCK the shot for once. And if you can't do that without fouling, then get out of the way.

    A morbidly obese person could stand there and draw a charge. These athletes should be forced to actually TRY to make a defensive play on the ball. Instead, they're always looking to just stand there like a deer in headlights, waiting for contact, then they flop over backwards like startled goats.

    Eliminate charging and make basketball much more fun to watch.

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